Entry: Entry 32: Science Assumes There Is No God July 12, 2009




I recently started going to meetings of a science-faith integration club on my campus.  A strange place for someone who doesn’t believe in god, I know, but one of my friends usually goes to them and thought I’d be interested in the discussions.  He was right, because I really have enjoyed them.  The few I’ve attended so far have been about Intelligent Design, so you can expect some entries in the future about certain articles from the ID “literature.”  I’m going to limit myself to those scare quotes in regards to ID, because this week I’d like to discuss something else that has come up a number of times at these meetings.

One person in particular at the meetings is fond of talking about what scientists think.  He has very strong opinions about what scientists like, dislike, assume, respect, do and don’t believe, and so forth.  Full disclosure: he and I (and others) often clash at these meetings.  I would classify him as rather anti-science, and many (if not most) of these statements he makes are simply strawmen.  I don’t think he has a good idea of how actual scientists view the world, so he’s ultimately addressing a caricature of scientists that he’s created for himself.  As an extreme example, he once declared that “scientists don’t like unresolved problems.”  That must be why we all keep going into work to research said problems, huh?

That’s enough picking on our friend.  This week’s statement is a point he often raises, and it’s a view that many of the other folks at these meeting share.  They certainly have a point; the usual hypotheses tested in scientific experiments never invoke the supernatural.  Any type of research involving such hypotheses is somehow qualified: alternative medicine, parapsychology, paranormal investigations, cryptozoology, faith healing, etc.  Does that mean scientists have assumed that such things don’t exist?  Why don’t scientists test out hypotheses involving god, if not because they’ve dismissed deities a priori?

Science Cheats!

Scientists largely ignore the supernatural simply because there is no tangible evidence for it.  Now, you might think I’ve just callously dismissed and pissed off no less than five large groups of people (based on my above list).  While I might have angered them, I haven’t actually said anything controversial.  If there was abundant evidence of extraterrestrial visitation, then intelligent aliens coming to earth would be a natural phenomenon.  If there was clear evidence for Bigfoot, then Bigfoot sightings would be natural phenomena.  If psychics could unambiguously demonstrate their precognition powers, then seeing the future would be a natural phenomenon.

That’s how science gets to “cheat.”  Once a phenomenon is established beyond reasonable doubt, it becomes part of the natural world.  Up until that point, the concept in question is firmly supernatural.  If unequivocal proof of ghosts is uncovered, then the conclusion would not be the supernatural is real!  The conclusion would be ghosts are real!, and the Loch Ness monster would still be a floating log.

A quick tangential story demonstrates this “cheating” quite nicely.  During a lecture about conservation of energy, one of my professors said that it is a law of nature and has never been violated.  (It is a continuity equation, as I discussed in Entry 19.)  But, he pointed out that someone once called him on that assertion.  This person claimed that the conservation of energy has been violated many times, but physicists just make up new types of energy to keep the balance working.  For instance, a chunk of uranium ore heating up would violate energy conservation until you invoked nuclear energy.  Although this person was wrong (nuclear energy is a type of energy), I can see how s/he might have viewed this as science “cheating.”

Sorry … Science Finds Your Creation Myth Less Appealing Than Clay

The incident that directly prompted this entry was a discussion of abiogenesis.  Our friend was particularly distressed that scientists aren’t exploring the possibility that god created life.  They’re looking a self-replicating chemicals and layers of clay and lightning strikes and panspermia, but not god.  Why are the first four hypotheses I mentioned valid to scientists, but not the last one about god?

The answer is simple: chemicals and clay and lightning and meteors are natural phenomena, while deities are supernatural phenomena.  We have evidence that these natural things exist/occur, and so it is possible to build plausible hypotheses based on them.  We do not have evidence for supernatural phenomenon, and so you cannot build a fruitful hypothesis based on the supernatural.

More important are the practical considerations.  Aspects of the natural phenomena can be tested in a laboratory setting.  What sorts of chemicals can catalyze their own replication?  Can layers of clay act as crude vessels for life?  Does lightning cause the formation of very complex chemicals?  Can microbes survive long trips in deep space?  On the other hand, the supernatural hypothesis defies testing.  How could the idea that god created life from non-life be explored in a scientific manner?

Abiogenesis is a very open question at this time.  The only currently appropriate answer to the question “How did life start?” is “I don’t know!”  Somebody’s god may well have done it, but there is no reason to think so and no way to coherently explore that possibility.

Let’s switch gears for a moment, and imagine that an astrologer is arguing that he can explain abiogenesis:

Many people believe in astrology, and use it successfully in their day-to-day life.  In the past, many scientists have been astrologers, particularly astronomers.  We believe astrology works via the action-at-a-distance principle, which is established physics.  Thus, the alignment of the stars also might have injected life force into formerly-inanimate chemicals.  Scientists ought to consider this hypothesis.

How would you respond to this (assuming you’re not an astrologer)?  You would say that astrology has no evidence, its popularity and history is irrelevant, its supposed mechanism is technobabble pseudoscience, and, most importantly, its abiogenesis hypothesis is untestable, unfalsifiable, and unscientific.

Replace all the astrology with theism, and you have the appropriate skeptical response to this week’s statement.

Without Evidence, It’s All Gremlins

If I were arguing against my own article, I would assert that scientists are being very closed-minded when they snub supernatural hypotheses.  The most obvious issue here is that the supernatural might turn out to be fully natural, and so scientists might be taking good ideas off the table when they ignore the supernatural.  Something wacky like quantum tunneling or time dilation would’ve been considered magical in the nineteenth century, and scientists who rejected such a concept would have been dismissing natural physics.

The issue here is that these scientists would have been correct in dismissing these hypotheses at that time, because there was no data to support them.  Experiments at the time lacked the sensitivity (and/or ability) to detect quantum and relativistic phenomena, so these ideas were simply not testable.  Once you allow untestable hypotheses into the mix, you’re lost in a sea of nonsense.  You have absolutely no way to discriminate between competing ideas.  If you’re going to believe that the electrons you cannot detect are tunneling through walls, you might as well say that gremlins are doing the digging.

“Woah, Woah, Woah!  What About [Dead White Guy]?!”

Again imagining myself in my targets’ shoes, I’d start arguing along philosophical or theological lines at this point.  People have been discussing the supernatural for millennia, and the prominent thinkers of the past few were kind enough to write these ideas down and earn themselves Wikipedia entries.  These discussions would of course provide fodder for countless entries, but we can succinctly slam this door shut for the purposes of this discussion.

Science trucks in the real world.  It is a systematic method for understanding the environment around us.  Evidence is paramount in science.  Scientists need evidence to test hypotheses, and they cannot scientifically deal with things for which there is no evidence.  This is why this entirely entry has been lousy with qualifier words:  tangible evidence, testable hypotheses, unambiguous demonstrations, plausible hypotheses, etc, etc, etc.

In a handy-dandy two-word term, science requires methodological naturalism.  Someone can philosophize until the atmosphere runs out of oxygen about the supernatural, but it wouldn’t affect the scientific method in the slightest.  So long as the supernatural doesn’t lose the meta- in metaphysics and become physics, the scientific method simply doesn’t (and actually can’t) care.

Imagine that someone, right now, is publishing proof that a deist-type god exists.  Their logic is impeccable, their premises valid, their reasoning sound, and their argument impregnable.  Tomorrow, the entire world will have definitive proof that a deity exists.  This fact would have no effect whatsoever on what I do in my lab the next day.  If this deity (let’s call it J. R. “Bob” Dobbs, just for kicks) doesn’t interact with the natural world, then science has no bearing on it and it has no bearing on science.

Hypothesize or Abscond (That Is, Put Up or Shut Up)

The claims of my new friend notwithstanding, scientists do not assume the Christian god doesn’t exist.  As a supernatural entity, a deity simply cannot be investigated scientifically.  Scientific inquiry requires evidence, reproducibility, consistency, and clarity.  If a concept or phenomenon possesses all these traits, then I assure you that it is not supernatural.

If a person ever makes this claim to you, I would reply with a simple request.  Ask them to explain an experiment that would demonstrate that their god did or did not do something.  I suspect the hangup will be falsifiability, so don’t let them off the (sky)hook in that regard.

   8 comments

Brett
July 31, 2009   06:21 PM PDT
 
Joe,

Nice article, and knowing the guy you are talking about, I can agree with you about him. But I think the implications of your statements go both ways, and I don't think you have acknowledged that.

You are definitely right that science cannot discuss the supernatural, and therefore using the supernatural to explain physical phenomena is poor science. The other way works too. Physical phenomena and scientific evidence cannot be used to prove the supernatural either. There is no overlap between them. To admit such an overlap occurs is to fall prey to a God-of-the-gaps type of fallacy.

I disagree with you that "the supernatural might turn out to be fully natural"." There are things called "supernatural" that might turn out to be natural, but that implies there was an error, not a change. If the supernatural exists, it does not matter how we classify it, it will always be supernatural.

Hence - and this is where I think you and I differ - science, evidence, testable hypotheses, etc. are all worthless when talking about the supernatural, but we should not dismiss the supernatural because of that fact. For you, an acknowledgment of the supernatural necessarily leads us into gremlin territory, but that is only if you do not use the tools available to us in philosophy, a very real, if unjustly battered, discipline.

I agree with you that the supernatural is not important for finding an incorrect hypothesis. The supernatural is needed, however, because it informs questions of "why?", complimented by the scientific answers of "how?". The answers to both of these questions have the potential to change what you do in the laboratory because they both imply that you may be "wrong", the latter in the sense that you are chasing an incorrect hypothesis, and the former that it is amoral or destructive.

So although I completely agree that the supernatural is an unnecessary hypothesis in the scientific sense - the sense our friend means - it is certainly not superfluous in a discussion of scientists or the world as it really is.
Joe
August 5, 2009   11:16 PM PDT
 
Thanks for the reply, Brett. It really got me thinking, and I had a ton of thoughts/responses after reading it. But, everything eventually more-or-less boiled down to this one thing you wrote:

"Physical phenomena and scientific evidence cannot be used to prove the supernatural either."

If so, then what can? I imagine you'd say logic or reason, but why must the supernatural be logical and/or reasonable? (To say nothing of the fact that science, at least ideally, is logical and reasonable.) How can you decide anything whatsoever about the supernatural? I cannot see how you don't immediately enter Gremlin Territory when you delve into the supernatural.

Let's imagine that a theologian has a rock-solid "proof" for the christian god. It's a rigorous, formal, mathematical proof-type argument. (I suspect I'm giving theologians too much credit, but I don't know for certain so I won't talk crap.)

Why couldn't a gremlin-based "hypothesis" (for lack of a better term) accomplish the same thing just as well? Let's say I counter with the following: every task the omnipotent christian god purportedly does is done by a different colored gremlin type. Red gremlins created the universe; blue gremlins codified morality; green gremlins rule heaven; orange gremlins answer prayers; purple gremlins ride the winning sperm saddleback to deposit the soul in the fertilized egg.

How do you discriminate between these "hypotheses"? Certainly the theologian's idea is more parsimonious, but Occam's Razor is a heuristic that applies in the NATURAL world; we have no reason to suspect that the good Friar's rule of thumb holds any sway in the supernatural. How can one possibly distinguish one from the other?

I again suspect that you'd answer "philosophy" or "metaphysics," or some such discipline. But: why? how? Logical arguments only work in a paradigm ruled by logic, which the supernatural is not necessarily.

It seems to me like you want to have your cake and worship it, too.
Joe
August 5, 2009   11:36 PM PDT
 
And now for something completely different ...

If we thought memes were trouble, what are we going to do with "temes"? http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=706
Brett
August 29, 2009   06:01 PM PDT
 
I can see where you are coming from Joe. That is a good question, "Why should the metaphysical be logical?" One way I see as a possibility is in science itself. The fact that we can make some sense out of the physical implies there is some sense, or understandable ordering, to the metaphysical. To see what I mean, consider the counterpart to your question: "Why should the physical be logical?" We don't have proof that the physical universe is ordered in any particular way either, but such a hypothesis, when acted upon, is incredibly productive. For that same reason, we can suppose the metaphysical is ordered and logical, not because we know it, but because to do so gives us philosophy.

The same way that we allow ourselves to participate in an unprovable physical science, we can think in philosophical terms about the universe. And just as there are good and bad physical hypotheses, there are good and bad philosophical statements. These statements cannot be demonstrated with the rigor of science, but nevertheless, we can differentiate between them. For instance, we can say with certainty that a racist philosophy is bad, but we have no way to proving it. We know it is bad because the logical conclusion of such a philosophy is, at worst, genocide, or at best, discrimination. This is because philosophy orders our life and gives us a morality, and we cannot simultaneously accept a conflicting philosophy and morality and remain rational, we must dispose of one or the other. Hence, we reject philosophical hypotheses when they conflict with what we know, in the loosest form of that word, to be true.

Isn't this exactly how physical science disposes of hypotheses? Aren't scientists, unaware of the underlying reality of the universe, restricted to a rejection of what they feel is wrong. Or do they somehow have a more direct access to reality than other people?
Joe
August 31, 2009   10:16 PM PDT
 
Hey Brett,

Thanks for the reply, but I'm sad to say that I have to disagree with you on just about every level.

I don't see how the fact that the physical world is logical implies that the metaphysical world is logical. To quote your first comment: "[S]cience, evidence, testable hypotheses, etc. are all worthless when talking about the supernatural[.]" Why wouldn't logic be included in the et cetera?

Moreover, I don't think your comparison to science is valid. I think you're talking about methodological naturalism, and that's fine (in and of itself) but I don't see how it's related to this point.

The assumption that the natural world is logical works because we can compare our logical hypotheses to observations, and they match. We don't (can't?) have observations of the supernatural, and so we cannot test our assumptions about it.

It's as if you're making an argument for methodological naturalism, but trying to apply it to the supernatural. Something's not adding up there ...

I also think you're muddling the water by talking about morality. Again, it seems like you're making an argument for naturalism (or humanism, let's call it). I agree that we can decide that racism is bad, because we can demonstrate that racist acts are immoral. What does this have to do with the supernatural being logical? It seems to me that you've demonstrated that humanism (or morality in general) can be logical, but I don't see the connection to anything supernatural.

And, finally, you're last paragraph was quite the drop of poison in the well. Of course scientists don't have a more direct access to reality than other people. However, they do strive to compare their ideas to reality, to see if they are correct or not.

Without this comparison, I still don't see how you can decide on which set of ideas to believe in. Why be a Catholic, as opposed to a Gremlin-ian?
Brett
October 11, 2009   08:21 PM PDT
 
Joe,

Sorry for the hiatus. I've switched computers and lost my bookmarks. It took me a little while to find your blog again.

Reading over these comments again, I can see how I wrote some things poorly and in a rush. I apologize because there was certainly no poison intended. I honestly want to understand your answers.

My overall point in these comments has been to show my agreement with you that science does not comment on God. I believe this is your point in the last two paragraphs of your article. As you rightly point out, there is no way to experimentally determine whether or not there is a god, and I think you would agree with me that there is no logical way to determine whether or not there is a god either. This is a question that is forever unanswerable and something we have to live with. I disagree with Behe that there is evidence for God and also disagree with Dawkins that the question of God is a scientific one. Are you in agreement with me up to here?

My next point, which I admit was poorly argued, is two-fold. The first point is that because we have a disconnection between science and the supernatural, we must use other tools to get at the supernatural. Because science cannot tell us anything about the supernatural, it seems a bad choice to use it to rule out that the supernatural can or cannot exist. Supposing that supernatural, metaphysical, or otherwise immaterial realities do exist, however, we would not be able to learn or understand them in any way using science. My suggestion is that instead we turn to philosophy and theology to understand the supernatural. I concede you have rightly pointed out that theology lacks any way of decisively discerning between two hypotheses.

This leads to the second point, which is that science itself has the same problem. As Kuhn points out, there is no way to determine which paradigms are the ones which correspond to physical reality. Usually, scientists are attracted to the theories that are most elegant and simplistic, i.e., Occam's razor, and usually there is an assumption that the laws of physics are constant in time and space. But there is no objective reason to suspect that these assumptions are valid. Moreover, the scientific method, as brilliant as it is, has no way of ensuring objectivity. So although all of our models work exceptionally well if we assume that atoms exist, we cannot say that out there in reality there are electrons spinning around nuclei with any confidence. We can say only that our models, given the assumptions listed above, work very well, but that is something different. I think, in principle, you would agree with me on this second point as well.

We have discussed this before, and I also think that we both agree that while science, philosophy, and theology are all handicapped in this way, science is the "best" way to understand the physical world. My own reason is probably similar to yours: given the results of science, it seems to correspond to physical reality so closely that it must, in some sense, be correct. That, as you know, is a logical fallacy. But this fallacy is unavoidable, because to suppose the opposite would mean that we do not know anything about reality at all. For me it is best to accept science in its crippled nature and move on.

Correct me if I am wrong, but is this not how atheists proceed with regards to the metaphysical reality? There is a temptation to throw out the possibility of a metaphysical (or supernatural) reality because we lack a way of knowing it. But to take such a step would be to ignore a part of reality, as it actually is. If God really does exist, the fact that we have no way of precisely understanding him as he truly exists is not an excuse to give up anymore than it would be to give up on science because it cannot tell us definitively about physical reality. I choose accept the crippled nature of theology, as I do with science, and move on.

This gets us to your question of Catholicism vs. Gremlin-ian theologies. How do I make a choice? I'll admit it is not systematic, but here is a short list of reasons I am Catholic. The theology is self-consistent, which is important to me. There is a focus on Truth, which I believe exists. In other words, other theological understandings, like Protestant Christianity, take more of a relativist approach, e.g., everyone can, in principle, interpret the Bible equally well. Relativism cannot be reality anymore than the law of gravity is relative. There are others that are harder to explain and are more like arguments from personal experience. The Catholic understanding of marriage, family, love, charity, etc. seem to fit with how I have experienced the world. There is also the aspect of tradition. While there is no way to say that those who came before me were right, it relieves much of the burden of what I must figure out on my own.

My point, however, is not that Catholicism is right. I would not make such a claim. The point, which I have hoped to clarify, is that whatever reality is out there, it is our job to try to understand what it is and to align ourselves with it as best as possible. While science is our "best" way to understand the physical world, it is by far the weakest way to understand the supernatural. And so, in my opinion, we must use the "best" way to understand the supernatural with the tools of theology and philosophy, incorporating this understanding into our life.

You'll have to correct me if I have been unclear again, and I'll also admit I don't know what methodological naturalism is, so you are right that I may be confusing my terms.
Joe
October 12, 2009   09:12 PM PDT
 
Hey Brett,

I'll try to break down my responses point-by-point without making it too obnoxious. (I recently learned the term "fisking," and it seems like a nitpicky and off-putting way to talk online.)

I'm torn on the notion that there "should" be scientific evidence for god, because different people have different conceptions of god. Obviously, your average young earth creationists thinks there is tons of tangible evidence for god. On the other hand, a deist would say there is none. I don't know much about your personal faith or Catholic theology in general, but is it really accurate that *none* of it is amenable to scientific evaluation? How about, say, the miracle claims associated with saints? (Specifically, what do you make of the frankly lame beatification "miracle" of Mother Teresa?)

I also am hesitant to acknowledge that science has the same problems as theology. We have discussed this point before, and I still don't think you're giving science due credit. (Perhaps Kuhn didn't, either; I almost bought SSR yesterday at a used bookstore, and I'm kicking myself now.) Science has the natural world handy to compare its theories to; theology does not have access to the supernatural.

As such, I think it can be objectively said that science is ever approaching the quote-unquote *real* reality, whatever it might be. Imagine a far away galaxy. Scientists once considered these points of light in the sky to be stars, or sometimes nebulae. Once they built bigger telescopes, these points of light were resolved into hundreds of billions of points of light, and we realized that these were galaxies. It is undeniable that the conception of these objects in the sky as galaxies is closer to the Truth than the notion that they are fuzzy stars. Right?

You have wiggle room to make these arguments when you're talking about Newtonian dynamics vs relativity, or classical chemistry vs quantum mechanics. But, you cannot possibly argue that the "model" (as you slightly derogatorily termed it) of a spherical earth is *not* objectively superior to the "model" of a flat earth.
Joe
October 12, 2009   09:51 PM PDT
 
As for this argument being fallacious, I really don't see how it is. Even if science were fatally flawed in the way you're suggesting, I think it can still make progress towards reality. For instance, within the paradigm of science, heliocentrism is better than geocentrism. Thus, heliocentrism is closer to reality than geocentrism, unless science is actually diametrically opposed (or tangent (or skew :-P )) to reality. Am I making sense here?

In case my argument is somehow flawed (and/or not making sense), I'll also bring up something Matt has mentioned. He thinks science approaches Truth in that it rules out non-Truth. Science has shown us that phlogiston theory is wrong, and has rejected it. In doing so, science has approached Truth by process of elimination. It has demonstrated that phlogiston is NOT reality, and so is approaching an ever-improving approximation of reality.

So, as you might guess, I take plenty of issue with the remainder of your comment. I see what you're trying to do by drawing an analogy between rejecting god and rejecting science, but I think this is just a false analogy. Even if I acknowledged your points about science not corresponding to reality (which I don't), arguments along the lines of methodological naturalism would have a field day with your comparison. Science got us to the moon in a few hundred years; millennia of supernaturalism still merely worships the moon. Like that t-shirt says: SCIENCE: It works, bitches!

As for your reasons for choosing Catholicism, I can't help but point out that they're not particularly objective and don't address my point about Gremlin-ism. Why couldn't everything you believe God does be accomplished by a horde of Gremlins? What in theology rules out this possibility?

Your faith is your own business, of course, but I also can't help but notice that a number of your stated reasons don't jibe with your preceding paragraphs. Is Catholicism really that internally consistent? How does your near-deism from above (no evidence for god) mesh with the miracles ascribed to St Nicholas (raised children from the dead)? If relativism cannot be reality, how does picking a candidate by non-objective means solve anything? It seems awful arbitrary to me, and it brings us back to Gremlins. Also, I'm surprised to see you say that you wouldn't claim Catholicism is right. It's been a long time since I was in Sunday school, but I was taught that Catholicism was right ...

My apologies if I've offended you or overstepped by bounds, but I really don't see how the "tools" of theology or philosophy tells you anything about the supernatural. It seems like it all boils down to an arbitrary choice: which supernatural system you pick.

I have to say, Brett, your comment reminded me a lot of that Alexander book they've been using in those meetings. I agreed with the first 75% with some ultimately minor (or at least subtle) caveats. But, the end left me confused and frustrated, mainly because it didn't seem to tie in with any of the content or themes of the rest of it. And, wouldn't you know it: the end is where the religion came in.

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